A Conversation About Chris Brown, Rihanna and Double Standards In Domestic Abuse

1540843138_fe600a14aa

After watching NBA All-Star Saturday (Dwight Howard should’ve won, but he gave it away with that last dunk. Just my opinion.), I had a conversation with my homegirl about the Chris Brown situation. I was telling her that I think that there’s a huge double-standard when it comes to the different genders and domestic abuse, and she tried fighting me on it. I think it’s an important conversation, so check it out under the cut.

me:

and CB’s losing. I wonder if Rhianna did anything to provoke him though

 

12:22 AM Jessica: wat does “provoking” have to do w/ her basically getting pummeled by her former lover?…I can’t stand when the question is posed like that

 

12:23 AM me: I’ll give you an example, Jessica

 

 Jessica: If you were raised right, you’d let her do her then let her out the car and leave her ass not put ur hands on her and beat her ass

 

 me: I’m not saying Chris Brown was justified, at all. that’s not what I’m saying

 

12:24 AM Jessica: provoked means her actions led to/is the reason why it happened

 

 me: what I am saying is that women use the fact that men can’t beat up women as a tool in pushing him to his threshhold

  example:

  my homegirl, close friend of mine

she was hitting the shit out of her dude, spat on him, started throwing things in his apartment, and compared him to his dad that left his family when he was younger. AND she told the dude to hit her

  and he hit her

 

 Jessica: she was wrong for that shit (and crazy) AND should have seen that hit coming…

 

 me: now, a dude should never hit a woman…but when the woman acts out like that, she shouldn’t get off scott-free either

12:27 AM that’s my point. whenever a woman does that shit, she’s just being “over-emotional”

  when a guy does it, it’s being abusive

 

 Jessica: it takes a real good man to have somebody do/say all that to u and u walk away…ur right

 

12:28 AM me: people just always assume that a man is losing control over bullshit. meanwhile, women hitting on men is sooooooo acceptable

 

 Jessica: I wouldn’t say over emotional. That’s childish and out of order

 

 me: if you watch a movie, and a guy hits a woman, he’s demonized for the rest of the movie. if a woman’s all hitting on a man, then he hugs her and they make up like it never happened

 

12:30 AM Jessica: it’s abusive if men do it because ur girl just had a moment. She doesn’t do it all the time, it’s not a pattern. On the other hand some men (and minority of women) use physical violence as a tool for control and that’s where the difference lies

  movies aren’t acceptable examples lol

 

 me: what if Chris Brown just had a moment though?

12:31 AM you see what I’m saying?

 

 Jessica: the moment should have ended after the first slap or punch when he realized o shit, but instead he kept goin until 2 black eyes, bruise marks, bite marks, etc. later

  and that’s also the difference

 

12:32 AM me: nah, because women will continuously hit the dude. the stereotypical things are her either repeatedly hitting him in his chest, or continuously slapping the shit out of him

 

12:33 AM Jessica: watever ketchum

 

 me: now, I’m not saying CB shouldn’t be persecuted

12:34 AM I’m saying both parties should actually be investigated. the same way men aren’t persecuted for having a lot of sexual partners while women are, men are persecuted for hitting women while women aren’t persecuted at all

 

 Jessica: and it’s also not fair that women aren’t paid as much as their male counterparts, this world is unfair so in certain scenarios there are going to be certain double standards

 me: lol we were on the same page

 

 Jessica: LOL right

 

 me: just cuz a double standard is there doesn’t mean it’s acceptable. if I were to be like….”well y’all get paid less. that’s what it is, live with it” you’d be like “fuck you ketchum!”

 

12:36 AM Jessica: unequal pay is a double standard and it’s unacceptable and there’s been nothing done to change it since the 60’s. that still doesn’t mean I accept it but ur asking for society to change their ways and that’s a lot for a hypothetical conversation

12:37 AM me: and women will continue to ask for higher wages, too

  it’s a fight lol

 

  • everybody has a breaking point… some more than others..

    if she did nothin.. shame on him…

    if she provoked him to beast-like behavior.. shame on her

  • This is quite the interesting discussion.

    Both sides have strong points, though as it pertains to the originally argument (about whether women are ever considered in the dispute) I have to say I am 100% in agreement with Ketchum. While there are definitely situations where men hit women (always unacceptable in my opinion) there are also situations where women throw the first punch or instigate as an example was provided above. I’ve even heard of a women throwing the first punch, it not being strong enough to leave a mark on the guy but he hit back instinctively and he got arrested because she was the one with the black eye.

    Now on the other side of this to get to a point where there are 2 black eyes and a number of other bruises (and bite marks? maybe it was a group activity lol) is way beyond the point of this self defense claim that we are explaining. Also all women know that even the most calm guy has a temper and more importantly they all know how to push the men’s buttons.

    End of day- dudes don’t hit your ladies. Ladies don’t hit your dudes. Ladies don’t intentionally piss off your dudes and ditch out on the punishment when it comes around.

    Double standards unfortunately will never go away so don’t help them along by pulling crap ok?

    Chris

  • People should really get to kno weach other before getting together. This is a product of speeding things up to fast before knowing the person. That is too popular in American Culture. That is why the divorce rate is so high and everything negative is prevelant. People shouldn’t judge Chris Brown without knowing the full story. Was he wrong? Ofcourse, I don’t condone no woman being hit. When the full storu gets out, that’s when I’ll draw my conclusions. But who are we to judge? You’ve probably done things as equal or worst than what he did. In the end, I hope both of them heal from this. They are still kids. Hopefully, things will get better.

    ez

  • margaret

    ” me: what if Chris Brown just had a moment though?”

    …this has apparently happened before, it was just never as bad as it was this time.

    other than that though, i completely agree with you. guys do always get the blame for abusive relationships. with a few exceptions, i don’t believe that a guy wakes up like “oh i feel like beating the crap out of my significant other today. in most cases, the guy is provoked into going to the extremes. the problem is though that in many cases, the man does not want to show weakness saying that he let another person hit him/let them abuse him emotionally and the other person is certainly not going to take any blame for the situation, so the man is the one who is looked down upon when really, its the other persons own fault for putting the guy into the situation. i obviously don’t think that its okay to hit someone just because you’re frustrated or mad, but i also don’t think that it’s something that only guys should be blamed for.

    *sorry if it sounds confusing, but i was trying not to use feminine words, because abusive relationships are also a problem in gay relationships. i realize it’s also a problem in lesbian relationships but that would have been way to confusing to try to get out what i was saying.

    p.s. you spelled rihanna wrong in your title = ) lol

  • Very interesting convo. Definately one history’s neverending discussions. The problem is, (and this is gonna sound sexist as hell) women are so emotional. Men don’t always think logical or rational, but women are very emotional. With their emotions in the equation, sometimes its hard for them to see that the man is agreeing with them. The above is a perfect example. That’s all I gotta say, g’nite folks.

  • I don’t care what she said. A man should NEVER put his hands on a woman.

    Also — a hit is a hit, don’t get me wrong — but there is a difference between a slap and a closed fist punch and he beat her like she was a dude in the street. The whole thing turns my stomach.

  • ketchums

    I don’t disagree with you, ma’am. But my point is that a woman shouldn’t ever put her hands on a man, either.

  • T.Love

    Any time society tries to make remedies for an oppressed group, there will be a concern of the group that is not being oppressed that there is a double standard. However those individual experiences can’t be used to take attention away from the bigger picture. When white people claim reverse racism because of affirmative action, often those people are not looking at the history of what is really going- that minorities have been systematically denied opportunities and the system is now attempting to correct that.
    The same thing is happening here. Women have been continuously raped, beaten, and abused at the hands of men. It was a very systematic thing. Laws such as statutory rape and domestic violence were put in place to remedy that. Men who claim there is a double standard are focusing on micro examples of how this guy was hit or whatever but that cannot take precedent over the fact that society as a whole still devalues women in a way that millions of women are beaten, millions are killed at the hands of their partners.

  • T.Love

    I do agree that a women should not put her hands on a man, but to focus on that is to really cheapen the reality of the mass abuse of women because we know that isn’t happening to the degree or in the numbers where it needs to be the main focus of a conversation about domestic abuse. Women who are killed, burned with gasoline,etc…is still the majority of domestic violence disputes

  • ketchums

    I get what you’re saying, but I think you missed my point.

    I’m not saying that men’s abuse should be devalued. I’m saying that women’s abuse shouldn’t be tolerated.

  • ketchums

    Nah, the only reason I’m focusing on it is because it’s an issue that’s very rarely addressed. You have entire organizations against men abuse, but female abuse and assault is too often forgiven as a woman being emotional, etc.

  • T.Love

    I agree, but I think there is a reason why men who are physically abused don’t usually call the police. That reason is because they don’t fear for their lives. I feel what you’re saying, but I don’t think that the reason for men bringing up this topic is that they genuinely feel a lack of protection. I think that it’s to prove a point about gender equality. I’m all for gender equality if it’s about protecting men who really feel that their safety is threatened because of their girlfriends. I don’t think that’s what men are feeling. I think they feel exactly what was stated in the topic- yall want equal pay, but we aren’t equal in some areas. I just think that this issue is too serious to have that sentiment tacked on to it.

  • T.Love

    There are other issues that are not life or death to bring that argument up with like paying for dates. You feel me. I think you’re right about the double standard. But I just think trying to address it in this way takes the focus off of a very serious issue that is life or death for many people. That’s all we are agreeing just not on the topic the conversation should be attached to.

  • JYoung The General

    I agree with T. Love…this doesn’t constitute a double standard, but I also feel that the macro examples of hierarchy shouldn’t set the tone for how individual cases are handled. Just like with any ism…racism, classism, etc…sexism can persist on both sides of the issue.

    The true arguement here is what happens when a guy gets provoked in a way that he retaliates with force? Some women will say based on the macro examples of oppression against women, it’s never okay to hit a woman. I believe regardless of the bigger picture in any situation there can be no golden rule in human interaction. A member of an oppressed group is prone to the same type of scrutiny as those who aren’t.

    For this specific situation, I can’t think of many things that warrant a beating plus bite marks. Unless something that rendered CB’s life truly irrevocable occurred, I can’t see the justification. However, I think the “guilty until we know the facts” stigma is definitely a side-effect of society’s insistence of going with the bigger picture…and that can be detrimental for domestic abuse claims that fall into a shade of gray. If you see a man and woman arguing and the cops show up, we’ll nine times out of ten attribute the blame on the male without proof.

    So yeah let’s not call it what it isn’t, a double standard, but I think general rule of thumb is when abuse comes up, look at the facts and be objective about it. Stats do show overwhelmingly that women are the victim, which is no surprise, and I feel that protecting women more from a legal standpoint is the right way to go. But lets not forget that lies, stereotypes, unfair sentencing, etc…complicate the issue as well.

  • T.Love

    I feel you. I just want to make sure that if there are groups dedicated to female assault that they are because men are really feeling threatened and not because they want to prove a point.

  • Here’s my whole take on this situation, I need to hear more facts. Straight up. If CB did do what’s alleged, shame on him, bad boy, go sit in the corner. But all the info I’m hearing doesn’t sound 100%. Mainly the biting. People usually bite when they’re losing. From what i’m hearing, CB don’t got a mark on him, so I’m/we’re supposed to believe that he went from slapping and punching, then stopped to nibble on her? That just don’t sound right. Something is missing in this scenario that we don’t know and may never know.

    As far as a breaking point, for him to spazz like that something must have really teed him off. But I can’t think of anything that dramatic (other than the Herpes rumors being true) that would lead CB to slap, punch AND bite.

  • T.Love

    I agree with J Young. Maybe that’s where ketchums and I are missing each other. I’m talking about the cases of abuse where there is physical evidence and it has been investigated. So ketchums are you talking about cases where there is just he said she said and the man is taken in. If so I do agree with you. That is wrong and needs to be addressed because that is not proper law enforcement.

  • Where do I begin? I honestly don’t know, I have major problems with the circus this is turning into for a number of reasons:

    1). NOBODY KNOWS WHAT REALLY HAPPENED. All this 2nd & 3rd source “reporting” is only sensationalizing the whole ordeal, but I guess that’s the point because there are people who are making DUST right now. I won’t believe that it really happened until I hear it from one of them and not E!. As far as I’m concerned, all of this is fake and quite possibly a publicity stunt. Exactly what they are publicizing, I have no clue but nothing is adding up and logic tells me that it shouldn’t be trusted until the whole story comes forward from a reputable, reliable, ethically-sound source that is concerned with relaying the Truth and not just looking for ratings and/or blog/website hits. But I’m an asshole, don’t mind me.

    2). THEY ARE NOT IKE & TINA. Since we don’t know the truth or the whole story, for all we DO know this could be an isolated incident that just got out of hand. Not justifying it by any means, but we need to keep that in perspective. I agree with Ketchum when he said that women are given a pass for hitting men, or throwing the first punch/slap but I also agree with Jessica in that when men ARE the instigators of domestic violence, they use it as a tool for control and there is a systematic pattern. If in fact this was a pattern within their relationship then that’s one thing. If Christ Brown just snapped, started wailing on her, and has since felt remorse for stooping to that level that’s something a bit different. Again, I’m not justifying it, just keeping things in perspective.

    3). DOMESTIC VIOLENCE IS A TRENDY TOPIC NOW. Now all of a sudden, domestic violence PSAs and commercials are popping up and people are clamoring for guests and experts to appear on talk shows to discuss it. Radio show hosts are bringing the topic into their dialogue with listeners. But how many people would stop a man from beating a woman in broad view of the public? It’s fine if you’re analyzing 2 majorly famous people under a microscope, but what about Ray-Ray throwing ‘bows on Pookie while they’re walking down a major street (I’ve seen this happen – granted, they may have been 2 crackheads fighting but the dude clearly had the upper hand and nobody stepped in to intervene). Non-famous people are victims of domestic violence at an alarming rate but nobody gives a damn. Speculation about a possible domestic dispute between 2 major pop stars is front page news and people are up in arms. Miss me with that bullshit plz.

    4). DON’T BELIEVE THE HYPE. This goes back to my point about people hyping up shoddy info to boost ratings. Some people are just flat-out fabricating with out shame. Please consult this Necole Bitchie link to see what I mean: http://necolebitchie.com/2009/02/11/whos-to-blame-for-this-rihanna-photo. And then there are the Chris Brown boycotts such as the one being promoted here: http://www.rashaentertainment.com/blog/?p=1653 (using the same Photoshopped pic of Rihanna’s alleged scars from being beaten. The so-called “boycott” isn’t even related to bringing domestic violence issues to the forefront, it’s a goddamn radio show trying to promote itself. That’s just downright shameful – how can you boil domestic violence down as simply being “unlucky in love”? Again, miss me with that bullshit plz.

    But yeah…I guess I’ll wrap it up for now, this got long without me even realizing it. Great post Ketch, keep ’em coming! Be careful when you ask me to comment, I’m a verbose one 😉

  • Robert B.

    I’ll never hit a girl, but I’ll shake the shit out of here…

    That would’ve ended the whole ordeal…

  • Robert B.

    *her

  • ketchums

    Well it isn’t even “just to prove a point” – it’s to say that if a woman hits a guy, that shouldn’t be tolerated at all – period. Because whenever a guy hits a woman, that’s usually the end of the story. T. Love, I guess I was talking about he said/she said situations, both in terms of police and in terms of society. I know that y’all have a lot of double standards to battle, and I speak out against those double-standards just as much, because they shouldn’t be there. But I just hate the idea that if a guy hits a woman, then he’s chastised by the law *and* by society, while when a woman hits a guy, she gets the pass. I’m not excusing men for doing it at all – because they have to be accountable. And it’s known that if you hit a woman here, that you go to jail/prison and get exiled from your community, period. It’s as simple as cause and effect. But whenever a woman goes in physically, it’s no big deal – either she was “having a moment,” or it’s that whole “he probably deserved it” shit.

    If a guy hits a woman, and she *kills* him after that, it’s self-defense. If a woman hits a guy and he simply hits her back, he’s wrong.

    I’m not going to hit my woman, both because of my respect for her and because of jail/prison/exile. But she should have the same fears when it comes to hitting me. Because unfortunately, respect and morality isn’t always enough to drive people to do the right thing. And that leads to women doing shit like that because they feel, “Oh it’s OK if I assault this dude, cuz it’s not like he’s gonna hit me back!” And it’s a problem when someone can come up with reasons to do that.

    I wasn’t just doing this to talk about the Chris Brown situation – because like NakedWithSocksOn said, we don’t know all the facts. I just used that to sort of open the discussion.

  • Man, this was a good post, Ketchum. A lot of good points raised, but I just can’t get past the excess of violence that was exhibited. Shaking, a smack or whatever. But this wasn’t like Ike and Tina in the back of a limo trading blows. Someone had the advantage in this fight, that being Chris Brown.

  • Sanam Abbas

    hey will…that was a pretty interesting conversation. And i have to say i agree with you, a woman should never put her hands on a man either because it is just as abusive and plain wrong! But about the Chris B and Rihanna situation in particular, he is my crucial point:
    Most of the stories do say that Rihanna was the one that provoked him and started the argument…she saw some texts in his phone or something (who knows) and went off…but the true test of someone’s character is how they handle themselves in difficult situations. It is known that women for the most part cannot be stronger than men, so even if Rihanna did scratch him (which by the way, the only signs they found of any attack on chris brown’s body was a scratch on his neck)…nways, if she did scratch him or watever, he could have just held her down, or gripped her hands to make her stop. Making someone’s nose bleed so that blood is flying everywhere, bite marks on her arms, and choking someone so hard that u leave hand prints on her neck, and busting her lip and giving her a black eye doesn’t even sound like self defense…it sounds like a man losing his temper and hurting a female really, really bad. the police officer that took the pics said they are extremely bad and she looks like she was hurt really bad in those pics. So obviously chris brown snapped…just based on the comparison of injuries on him as opposed to her!

  • Sanam Abbas

    And this is not chris brown’s first domestic violence situation…a couple of years ago cops were called to his hotel in vegas cuz he was throwing dishes at his mother and someone heard it and called the cops. And he did say on the tyra show that he comes from an abusive household so it’s possible that he’s a product of his environment…who knows! There were also reports that he ruptured something in her eye about a year ago so she had to wear an eye patch for a few days…which i did see pics of her wearing one. And you know, this is kind’a personal but I was in a very abusive relationship for 5 years and lemme tell you, it sounds kind of sexist but even if the girl is provoking you, a guy always has the choice between holding her down just to make her stop and seriously hurting her!

  • Lady Jayne

    So, I’ll play the “Devil’s Advocate” in this situation.

    I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, something happened for him to have been provoked to hit her. It’s unacceptable for people to put their hands on another person PERIOD. No matter if it’s a Man hitting a Woman, or a Woman hitting a Man. It shouldn’t happen.

    Are we all forgetting that there are stories circulating about how volatile Miss Rihanna has been with her FAMILY members? Are we all forgetting that there are reports of her hitting him in public? Or, are we choosing to say, “Poor Rihanna, no matter what she did, he shouldn’t have hit her.”

    In many cases, people are choosing to make that last point.

    Now, I’m speaking as a person that has 6 brothers (I learned not to put my hands on a Man ever), having been in two volatile and abusive relationships (one the guy beat on me and the other we were both guilty parties). Obviously, they knew each other’s buttons to push and in this instant, I really think that one of those parties didn’t realize how far it would go. Also, when people want to point out a comparison of injuries, they point out that he was scratched on his neck. Um, I don’t know about you, but the fact that you would go for someone’s neck suggests an intent to do great bodily harm. Also, weren’t they in a moving vehicle? If someone could clarify me on who was driving or what that whole situation is about, I would greatly appreciate.

    I said all of that to say this: I’m not saying he was justified in hitting her. I’m saying that NO one should have raised a hand in that situation or done something that would have provoked the other person to do so.

    BTW, the unequal pay thing is being resolved as we speak. President Obama just signed an act that made it legal to sue for “pay discrimination” no matter when you find out about it (it used to be that you had to bring legal action against a party within 180 days).

    *Lady Jayne

  • ketchums

    Yeah, I think Lady Jayne gets my point. Domestic violence is wrong, period. Regardless of sex/gender.

    And like Naked With Socks On said, biting is normally a sign that you’re losing. Maybe she was trying to choke him, and he was biting her arms to get her loose? And then he just went apeshit after that. Who knows?

  • Talitha

    OK…this is my take on it. I feel like nobody should INTENTIONALLY hurt another person PERIOD. Whether it be physically, verbally, mentally, whatever the means. With this said however women do a lot of the time have a tendency to use provoking methods which may lead to an action that they will not like. Just like I know a 6’5 man shouldn’t be hitting a 5’4 woman. I also know that I wouldn’t be a 5’4 woman provoking a 6’5 man whether I knew he would hit me or not. We all know when we take things too far and when we don’t. Now don’t get me wrong you do have your weak ass, punk ass men out there who just hit on girls to help alleviate the lack of control and manliness they feel they have but that is when you have to make a decision to stand up against it and try to find help or move on. A lot of women are masochistic it seems to and will stay in situations where they know it is not healthy for them. Now I have no right to speculate one what Chris Brown and Rihanna are going through that girl could have spit in his face and said all type of stuff. But you never know how someone will react to something you say or do to them thats why you have to treat others the way you would want to be treated. Bottom line there are two sides to every story.

    For example I have 5 brothers and there have been many times when I have intentionally provoked them or said things that I knew would hurt or cut them. I have to take responsibility for my actions as well as them if they decide to do something physical to me or verbally back to me. Its about accountability. Just like I wouldn’t go up to another female on the street and call her a “Bitch” without expecting some type of repercussion. Not to say the repercussion is justified or should be done BUT I can’t be surprised either.

    Like I say treat others the way you want to be treated. Each domestic situation is different. You have men who have never hit a woman in their life until they met that ONE that just got to them. We all fall short sometime and until you get a better understanding of why that happens you can’t just assume and side with one party.

  • a man shouldnt hit a woman. BUT a woman shouldn’t give a man a reason to hit her. I know females who have justified a reason a woman got hit by a man. It shouldn’t go down like that but if a woman steps to the plate the strong hand they may receive.

  • Sanam Abbas

    ANY ABUSE IS WRONG! Whether it be physical, emotional or verbal! Boy or girl, doesn’t matter! If Rihanna is emotionally abusing him to the point where he loses it, that is wrong as well!! If people are in abusive relationships, it either needs to stop immediately or the relationship should end! It really shouldn’t matter: man or woman! If I scream at my boyfiend and I’m a little too loud, he gets extremely upset n won’t stand for it! I never call him names like “stupid” or “dumb” in an argument because I believe verbal abuse is never ok!!I learned that lesson from my past history of abusive relationships that verbal abuse will lead to worse things in the future!I realized that We have to set boundaries n then stay within those boundaries!! Also, a lot of us as women somethimes think its cute to order ur man around, specially in front of ya peoples, tell him what time he can stay out till, irritate him with demands we can probably fulfil ourselves and at times, even tell him not to talk to certain ppl maybe cuz we feel threatened or don’t like them! And all this is really not cute! To me, the whole princess act is reallt old fashioned and restricts progress towards adult relationships! You should give ur man the exact same respect that you expect from him! Just because ur not hitting him doesn’t mean you’re not abusing the fact that he’s tryina make the relationship work by unnecessarily controlling him! Bottom line, relationships need to be equal from all angles for them to function like grown and mature investments! And if someone is still abusive, then we know they have a problem!!
    Okay so I guess a lota this doesn’t directly apply to Chris and my girlfriend, rihanna…but that’s cuz I’m biased about that particular situation, ill admit it! For me, Rihanna is my love!! Lol

  • There’s one MAJOR difference between men and women that make this not a double standard, but a perfectly reasonable one – testosterone.

    Call me when the number of women at your gym who can bench more than their own body weight is equal to the number of men who can do it.

    Point blank, men are physically stronger and should know better.

  • ketchums

    Men *should* know better.

    Women should be ready to receive what they dish out. Treat others how you want to be treated – we’re taught that when we’re kids. Men should be held accountable, but women should too – that’s all I’m saying.

  • Pingback: Chris Brown Formally Charged With Felony Assault And Criminal Threats « Speech Is My Hammer…()

  • Alyssa Taylor

    This is a late comment** Even though this was a long time ago, both of you have a point.

    She should have seen it coming.

    She shouldn’t use the “men can’t hit women” rule against him.

    Provoked DOES mean something was the reason for something to happen.

    I got to agree with both.